Reasonable Product
Reasonable Product
A recruiter's view on the job market for product management: layoffs, salary negotiations and hiring tips - with Doug Bates (Intelligent People)
2023 seems to be a special year for the Tech job market. Layoffs made the headlines already in January, and several companies have followed this trend since. But is it really so? Is the tech market stuck? What does it take in 2023 to be a great Product leader, and to be noticed by recruiters? In this Podcast, I spoke with Doug Bates, director at Intelligent People, a boutique recruitment agency specializing in Product leadership positions.
Doug is optimistic about the current job market for product people, and he sees the same or higher number of job offers for the top candidates. Yet, product professionals have to know how to "sell themselves", with a recruiter receiving hundreds of CVs per day. We spoke about candidate employability, selling yourself as a product, and how negotiating your next salary.
Doug has plenty of great advice for hiring managers as well, to make the right hiring choices, and to business leaders and CEOs about the right moment to hire a CPO. We also discussed what is turning off the best product people in the market and how a solid product organization that reports to… product leaders is key to attracting talent.
You can find all the material that Doug mentioned in the Podcast here https://www.intelligentpeople.co.uk/
And you can contact Doug via email at DougBates@intelligentpeople.co.uk
To stay up-to-date with original Product content and thoughts:
- Follow me on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/salvatorebocchetti/
- Bookmark our website: https://reasonableproduct.com
// ** This transcription was done automatically, forgive any mistakes **//
salva:
Hello, and welcome to reasonable product. So 2023 is starting as a special here when it comes to the job market in tech. and today we've got dug beats here to discuss what it means for product professions. Good morning, Doug
doug:
Morning, salva, How are you?
salva:
Very good. thank you very much. very happy having you. So Doug is director at Intelligent People a boutique agency, specializing in exect level product professionals, and he will help us today to cover this topic both from a candidate and from a company perspective. Right Doug,
doug:
Indeed?
salva:
Okay, Can you? can you introduce yourself in a few sentences who you are and what you're doing?
doug:
Yeah, yeah, sure, we well, intelligent people are an executive search firm for the text sector and we cover product management predominantly, but also marketing in commerce and commercial roles. I've got twenty years experience hiring product professionals up to C, P. O level, and we're pretty heavily involved in the product management community. We sponsor things like women in product Jam London, I don't, if you know that, but also product Tang product con, and we recently launched a product mentaring scheme as well.
salva:
So you're very, very well into this product community And that's great, and I have to say, when I was reaching out to a few people, because it's been some time I wanted to do something about specifically the job market for product and I was impressed to find people were specializing into this particular niche. How did you come to figure out this niche? And why did you get into that
doug:
It was by accident we started off as a as a sort of techrecruitment company, and in two thousand and four we landed a pretty good campaign with a l, if you, if you remember them, and they were looking for a trance of people called product managers, which no one had really heard of that title before, But we were used to doing marketing and client facing roles for the text sector, so we got a pretty good grasp on it really quickly And we hired about twenty twenty five people for them over a year and it was cool. It was like it was really good fun. They were doing some really exciting stuff and we liked the idea of product and we knew we had to specialize as a recruiter. At the time, it was obvious that you know being a specialist was the way forward, so we threw our hat in and decided to specialize in product. And yeah, we have ever since.
salva:
Excellent? And so I have to, I feel I can ask you a very tough question then, And
doug:
Great.
salva:
the question I like to ask is how do you explain what a product manager is to your grandmother. For example, I know you are used to vulgarize this to two different people, and probably your counterpart in the companies you're serving,
doug:
Yeah, this is a great question. And And and I do you know you speak to people in a pub, But I have to explain it in layman's terms. So so I think, If you, if you think about any any tec or software product, if you think of this as as a physical building, the product manager is really the architect. They're the person who decides where should we have a building. Should we have a building? What's the internal and external aesthetic of the building and what's its function? So Yeah, I think that's a simple way of doing it, and obviously you know, a product manager often gets to decide. I guess when a new building is is needed by doing market research, But that's the. yeah. I think I think architect. think of a building architect. That's the simplest way of doing it.
salva:
And I know how tough this question is because it's just said when you are in a pub and people are asking what are you doing for life? Sometimes you, you would love to say I'm a lawyer or I'm a doctor. right, Much easier.
doug:
Um, yeah, not a lawyer, but maybe a doctor. Yeah,
salva:
A little bit easier to explain, I guess,
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
but I also got feeling that today you know, with us I want you to discuss. There's one very deeply with you, and
salva:
I know you have got very very attentive eye on the market today on the job market,
salva:
so I believe these discussions are becoming a gain. also pub discussions when he
doug:
Yeah.
salva:
comes to the market and lay off what's happening there. What's your take on this
doug:
What, in terms of what the market is in general, R, or the sort of the laying off side
salva:
Right?
doug:
of stuff?
salva:
Do you see this laying off? S being something like isolated cases And we're making a lot of noise for nothing, or is like a tendency. What's your reading of the market?
doug:
Honestly, I heard a really good expression where somebody said that dealing with the techmarktan with venture capitalists is like working with manic depressive And it's really true. It's all about confidence, because there's so much in tech that is V, C backed or scaling up, or pre, profitable. Confidence is everything. And I think what happened is a lot of the large tech firms over hire during Covid, you know, like Netflixsenamas, and they thought a great people are going to stay in for life and shop from home for life, And of course that didn't happen, and a lot of businesses like clan, whose business model was based on very, very, very cheap interest rates again, clearly cheap interest rates weren't going to last forever. So they over hired and they're laying off and I think this is what we're seeing. At the moment, most of the lay offs we've seen have been in support, so they've been in talent, Hathor customer services a lot of the time When people are talking about lay offs, What they Saying is they're not going to grow this year. They're just going to make natural redundancies and not expand. And I've seen that you know, I've been through kind of four or five recessions. I guess where you have Black Swan events like the financial crisis, et cetera it's always what happens. People lose confidence, they lay off the support staff. There's a period of uncertainty and uncertainty is the real killer and then its business is usual again, and interestingly you know the techmar. It is so sensitive and it moves so quickly. We've actually noticed a really big upturn in jobs in the last week, which sounds ridiculous, but confidence in our office is so much higher than it was literally two weeks ago.
salva:
So I hear the glass is held full from your perspective.
doug:
Well, I'm a recruiter, so I have to be positive.
doug:
you know. I mean, you know,
doug:
at the end of the day I got to find great jobs for great people, so I don't have a job, so it pays to be positive, but I do think I think there has been a bit of a right sizing and a bit of a correction to over hiring that was done during Covid, and I think that has more or less been done. Now that's my field.
salva:
But do I hear you right? So what you're also saying somehow is that the profession which are most impacted as long as
doug:
Yep,
salva:
this down sizing was or still is something, were more on the support, which mean fenders and your right, a bit less on the product and development side,
doug:
Absolutely, we've had three job offers come through this week and every candidate has had multiple offers.
doug:
So you know most tech businesses these days, their product centric product is the heart of the business. They're not sales driven, the product driven, and we're finding the upper quart of product managers are getting as many offers as they were before, so we
salva:
Right,
doug:
feel quite confident about the market for product people, particularly
salva:
So the message also is not get depressed this year because there is still a market out there. Yes, there
doug:
Absolutely.
salva:
is been ittle bit of noise, but the fundamental are still there especially for private people.
doug:
Absolutely. yes, absolutely.
salva:
Do you see that this noise about lays off might have had any impact for example on the average salaries to get offered. Like you know, the market is shrinking, so you can't really ask for higher salaries. Is something
doug:
Um. So so now is probably not a good time to ask for a huge pay hike, but we have seen product management salaries go up by about twenty per cent in the last eighteen months, so that kind of feels balanced. you know, roduct commercial role you now in the public sector, so you don't get an inflation, repay rise every year and product salaries. you know, As I said, they have accelerated and we've actually got a really good salary and equity guide on on our website. If you go to intelligent people, employer advice and then product management salaries, We've got a breakdown of salaries, kind of over the last eighteen months, and what people can expect to get for their next role?
salva:
Right? So you're saying that they raised about twenty percent in the last eighteen months, And are you suggesting somehow they were too high? They're adjusting, or they're just not
doug:
Um,
salva:
raising any more
doug:
no, they're not going backwards like no one's getting a pay card.
doug:
But I don't you know. I would say you know if a product person came to me, An said, how do I get a pay rise in my current role This year? I would suggest shipping good product and understanding their current company's situation. S the best advice. If a candidate came to me instead, I'm on the market. What is a realistic pay rise for my next job? But I would be saying kind of sideways or five per cent, Whereas this time last year I was saying ten or twenty per cent.
salva:
Just for the fact of switching job? Basically you were suggesting you could kind of try to get it right.
doug:
Well, a lot of the time people switch jobs because of package, and so yeah, and it depends on situation. in my experience, people will often take a like for like salary if they're not working if they've been made redundant or left their last job, or if there's a really strong reason for leaving their last job, If somebody is in employment they are. It is. It is rare for them to Without at least some sort of incremental increase.
salva:
So can I summarize this way? I say, If you're if you want to change your P. M job or product leadership job this year on the ground, which is different than money and salary, then go ahead, there is room for this. But if you're doing
salva:
this opportunity for salary, probably not the best year
doug:
It's not the best quarter. I think
salva:
To
doug:
I think
salva:
be cool.
doug:
Yeah, wait till Q three and see how the land lies, then
salva:
Yeah, that's that's you're right. That's the moment for another very tough question And I asked you if you've got your crystal ball with you on what would be your best Bad. So how you said you really see some signals of the situation getting little bit better.
salva:
How long this Don turn is going to last? From your perspective,
doug:
Um, I mean again, I see it as a as a correction, rather than a down turn
doug:
on. I feel that I feel the market is very close to being what I would call normal, and by normal, I guess I'm thinking about what it was like in twenty nineteen. So you know, the first year of Covid. You know, the bottom dropped out of the market for a huge number of companies. The last eighteen months hiring was intense and you know ridiculous. To be honest, you know, We still have probably eighty percent of the roles I would expect a business our size to have coming through. So you know I don't feel we're in a recession or that the market is bad. By any stretch. I just feel the. there's a slight lack of confidence and nervousness and there's some of the some of the big players have made lay offs, but for different reasons, you know, Twitter have made a lot of lay offs, but they've got a new owner who you know with with Reputation that precedes him, Amazon aren't really laying people off. Clnoravelaid people off, because their business model as predicated on something that kind of wasn't right. Other company. S. you know, some of the soft sots of service B, T B companies. They're not hiring as aggressively as they were because the Vcs have said Hey, we need to see what your Ar R is, as opposed to Hey, We're just going to give you money, so I don't think the market is bad by any Stretch of the imagination. It's just compared to last year. It's not as buolliant.
salva:
And also, I understand there is no one size of its sole reason why companies might not be hiring as much as last year, but again, different owners are two year different situation
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
for sauce and so on.
doug:
yeah, and there's obviously you know. there's been some. There's been some huge events, huge, black, small events. as as I call them, Covid, being one of them, The Ukraine situation, be another, the ongoing impact on energy being another. and I mean in England, for example, the the energy crisis, as it was referred to, at the time it was huge. I mean, our government was talking about bailing out people's gas bills to the tune of a hundred and sixty billion pounds. That that's huge, and as it transpires they're not going to have to do that or pay anything like that. As it transpires energy bills have been nowhere near what people feared they were. But but fear uncertainty and doubt of the things that kill confidence and kill markets, And I feel we're through Covid. I feel the energy pricing situation has stabilized a lot. Ukraine, Who knows you know, But, but I feel normality is resuming quite fast at the moment.
salva:
And so do we also hear? Sometimes you were talking before about product led companies.
salva:
So do I hear correctly that companies are not getting getting back on this concept. They still persist in being product lads, or
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
or is the opposite,
doug:
yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't see that changing. To be honest with you, You know the companies used to be. I guess you had Tecla, then sales led, but you know, I think the I phone changed it all and everyone realized this. You're gonna be product led. But you now build products that people love and there is you know if you look, for example, thirty three per cent of foot. one hundred companies now have a c. P. O. You know that's huge. Like this is a job function that didn't really exist. Kind of eighteen years ago. A third of an out. one hundred companies typically are more traditional enterprise is, so you know, products here to stay.
salva:
So you say a third. If I got you right Of the company got
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
a Cponamong. The companies you're looking in tech right, So the companies that could have a C po,
doug:
No, no, no, no,
salva:
in
doug:
no,
salva:
general,
doug:
thirty thirty three percent of foot. One hundred companies
salva:
Whoa,
doug:
have have product officer like tests, Have got a chief product officer test, cos a traditional retailer, but people buy online, you know, and we were at. We're at product on the week before last. There's been a forty one per cent rise in C P. job titles in the last three years.
salva:
And this is coming from your perspective from product functions being a touch of something else before before you go out, perhaps a cito, and was also looking after product or achieve sales offering product. Or it's just something completely new and people say, Oh, we have to create a new department
doug:
Um,
salva:
or a new.
doug:
I think I think I think things have changed. You know, if you think you know twenty twenty years ago when S a p wanted to do a new release, they didn't really have a product manager. You had sort of industry specialists that would look about industry solutions. You had pre sales teams and you had Dev teams that were off shore using Waterfall, And they would say we're going to do a new upgrade every three years. We're gonna release something new every three years, and the productmarketing team would Sort of write what it was, but there was no. there was no one. sort of saying. This is what the market wants. Okay, we're going to drive Deb to do it. What they was doing is sort of saying. Hey, we can create this sort of function. Can we sell it? And that's just been flipped? That's been. You know, that's been completely flipped. but by the I phone, I would say, but just with the Web in the internet as well, and I guess you know, the other dynamic that's changed is Tech products will never really consumer products. You know, if you think twenty years ago what Tex did people have in their houses? I mean, no, not much. you know. You might have a home, P. C or something. Now everybody is connected. like everybody. Everybody has a mobile phone, a smart phone that's got a whole bunch of different products that are connecting them to a whole bunch of different Tex stacks, et cetera and consumers of fickle, Like if it's not great and it's not easy to use, Can it? so?
salva:
We've
doug:
yeah,
salva:
got product lads, company and product lit households, Right
doug:
Yeah, we say consumers of fickle like if they expect stuff to work, they expect it to work. Now they expect it to be free. And if it is, and they find something that is, so yeah,
salva:
And about this c, p. O stuff. I find it very interesting because the way when somebody asked me, usually the way I, I draw a similar picture, the way I usually draw and be interest in what you think about is that there have been actually two moments. One has been the moment when we said we do need product people in general. So and so you start seeing department with product management again, sometimes attached
doug:
M,
salva:
to Cdos or a tack
doug:
No,
salva:
or two, marketing. And then there is being a second way. The second moment which is in this product depart, Men or other people. Actually, they report the rill in to the decease, So I really saw these two moments. Do you see the same like before the creation of the of the product functions and then the product functions access in the Ist.
doug:
Um, Well, a lot of startups. The founder is kind of the lead product person anyway, they're the kind of the Steve Jobs type persons. So we, whether now, whether that's because they're a product manager at heart, or whether it's because they've had the idea and they kind of learn how to build product so that tech can deliver what their kind of idea was, And to be honest with you, I, I can't remember the last time we placed a product manager that didn't report into a product function Because and a lot of product people that are leaving organizations will often do it because they say it's not product driven. You know, I report into tech, and if you know, for product persons, reporting into tech tech is really driving what that company delivers. Text should be the enable the product people should say. Okay, We've done some research. The data and the evidence says that we should be doing this tech you. You need to make this happen. Somehow, you know if it's the other way round, text sort of say hey, we can build these things within these limits. You guys need to find a way to sell it sort of thing. so yeah, I don't. I can't recall the last product person we O reported to tech. There is a new role, the CPTO Um, and we've seen that increasingly as a job title. And you know, chief product and Technology officer, but that's a very strategic role and normally that's a role that happens at a scale up where you have a V P engineering and a V P product already. It's just somebody who has the overarching vision for both, Because product and tech are the twins. You know they fight, they fight and they argue They're in. You know, their dependent on each other. So
salva:
So what you're saying is either they are somehow on the same on the same level with the CPTO or you can't any more not have a product function represented. And what you like what you're saying from a recruiter perspective, people would just not join the company.
doug:
Yeah, I would If I've been proven by a client and the product people weren't reporting to either the owner, co, or somebody with product in their tent, or whether that's a c, p, o, o v p, product or a c, P to, I would be advising the client very strongly at the outset that this was going to be a very, very, very challenging assignment. So yeah,
salva:
And because we were talking about start up and you said you know at the beginning and that is normal, The co or usual is the founder is also the main product guy. whatever it's called, it,
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
S C, P, or whatever, one is the right moment for an owner of a start, probably scaling up to say not my job anymore. Let's hire a c. P. O.
doug:
Yeah, interesting. so it, in terms of so, if you're a start up and your your founder isn't a product person, for whatever reason, like, maybe they're in, you know, an account, and they're just just not going to be capable of doing it. You need to do it as soon as you got funding. So you're a start. You go to accelerate, or they will kind of provide some experts, etcetera, but you have to have some one owning the the funding the function, so I'll say Media on getting funding If you're a start up and you have a product founder. I would probably say, when you've got product market fit, so when you're looking to scale up, so that's normally serious, be serious, because the person who you zero to one isn't always the person who goes from that point onwards and really, once you've got product market fit and series B or C funding a founder or so, should be looking at bigger things than what's the product doing next, If that makes sense, and there's better people to do that, So I would say that at that point and for an enterprise it depends if they're product centric or not, or even if they want to be. But as I said, we have thirty three per cent of fortune. One hundred companies have a c. P. O, and I would guarantee none of them did twenty years ago. So yeah, we've actually got again. We've got a guide on a website about wines. A good time to hire a C. P. O. So if anybody wants to just look at intelligent people Dot Co, we've got a great Term blog written by our head of marketing that covers that too.
salva:
That's great and I really think it's a topic right, because it's you don't want your heart too early. As just said, Because zero two one is now what you're hiring a Cep to do, but
salva:
not to laid either, because it is going to be a stretch anyway. Do you see among your customers company customers any asigment which is coming be because a v c or an investor is saying Hey, Now that's the right moment to hire a Cipo. You have to go. I want.
doug:
Yeah, I mean quite a lot. we do work with V, C, s and private equity companies, and often it's at a pivot point, so it's when product market it's been hit. It's when they've got P investment, and they always when they want to scale up, so yeah,
salva:
And what is the suggestion Usually you give to these Cos guy who are your direct clients there? and say hey, If you want to get a C. P, you have to do this right. What would be the number one thing to look after?
doug:
Um, I mean, there has to be a clear job description. You know, they have to understand what the job is and what they want somebodyed to do, but I mean, normally people at that stage have been advised by investors. You know, they've got a business plan. They know what it is they need to do. They know what the runaway is, They know what they need to achieve, and kind of how, and why? So, and we do help build job specks out for Come Is as well and again, we have job specks on our websites for C. P. S. If people need sort of ten place to hire, but I guess you you, it's the same as hiring any role. you. You've got to understand. what's this person here to do? What's the expectations of them, and then what skills and capabilities does the person need to be able to do the job? and that that's all gonna be documented in some some kind of job description. But yeah,
salva:
And what will you say is the number one trade or skill or element that companies are looking right now when hiring a C. P? Unless we're talking about scale ups now, so you're on this particular niche,
doug:
I mean, I mean, you've got to have a proven proven track record of success and failure argubly as well, because there's some great people that have been with companies that just didn't work for whatever reason, But but honestly it can vary. We have you know two or three c, p. O assignment. At the moment, one of them is looking for very specific market knowledge and partnerships, Because What they want to do, they want to provide partnership base solutions to S. M. S, particularly around finance. So they need some quite specific skills in doing that. We have another one that's hiring somebody, and they want someone who's got specific experience of not only working for a scale up, but of helping raise funding. So actually what they want to do is they want to hire somebody who's got the credibility to speak to investors on their behalf to do pitch decks for them, and who can really To the investors? Hey, I did this before I was at Deliverer or I was at wherever, and I've been through this process and what I'm doing. So your money is safe with me, sort of thing, because I want to see there is no. there is no one skill. I mean, Typically speaking, I would say every product person's got to be able to say, You know I delivered.
doug:
You know. that's a. That's a kind. of. They have a track record of actually success in the job. But but then there's the Yeah. there's the
salva:
But like also, I like also to say that when it's also a matter of credibility, writes
salva:
is at a certain point, you just know that you need a C. P. and it's part of your business card for your company, saying we, if you want to be a proterlit company, we have to walk to And we do. you have a C P helping us
doug:
Yeah. I mean, I mean yeah, and some, sometimes we have searches where it is you. the company will say, Look, we actually want to hire somebody who is from a unicorn because we want to make a statement to our investors and our competitors and the market. So actually, where somebody has worked is as if not more important than the skill set, which is unusual. but yeah,
salva:
Right. So what is your experience there? So I imagine An I heard is many times saying, Oh, we're going to hire somebody from Google. Doesn't mate what he was doing, A Google. but we're gonna hire somebody from Google because we need something there, if you, if you imagine a scale where you get like the reputation of the previous company
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
versus the actual impact you're delivering there. And ideally you want top right, right, great reputation before and and great truck racket, But what do you and your customers usually put the accent?
doug:
Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I mean that's that's called hiring for vicarious success, and the M, and I'm not a fan or doing that. Actually, Because what people are doing is saying, Hey, Google as successful. there go the people who work there are good. Go If I hire someone from there, I will be successful. And you know there's a a lot needs to go right for that equation to work on. Really the people that got Google to where they are. Now they're not there any more like Google. You know, which isn't say that Google don't have a high bar because they do, but Google's now a huge enterprise. It was like Maria May that got Google to where they were, or she was certainly one of them and again, If you, if you look at her, she wasn't successful. Really Ayah. For whatever reason, So I'm not a fan of doing that. So so You? there's three overlapping vents. When you hire. You have the skills. you know what hard skills to people need. You have capability. You know what some one capable of doing, and you then have experience and experience. S kind of ware of they worked. You should always hire. In my opinion on skill and capability not experience, that there is always an overlap on those three events. And you know I get that someone might say Okay. Look, we want to. We want to replicate what A have done. So I want someone who understands market places and scaling up in Europe. but again, I would say that's a capability thing. What you want is someone who's used to a scale up in Europe. If you get the right person, they don't really need to understand market places. It's not that complex. It's just
salva:
So
doug:
another
salva:
basically
doug:
product. Yeah, so yeah,
salva:
So you think were. Also, Sometimes we're proxing through the experience. What
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
in reality want? is it, skills and capabilities, But somehow experience is easier to judge.
doug:
Absolutely, you know people in the hiring it. There's a number of different dynamics. You know everybody hire, and they want to be successful. but I don't if you remember the expression like no one got sacked for buying I B. M.
salva:
Yeah, I thought it was a oracle, but yeah, I think it's
doug:
Okay, Yeah, I'm older
salva:
work
doug:
than you.
salva:
either way
doug:
It was probably some one before I B. M. this is the sort of. there is also this particular. If people are new to hiring an inexperience. And you know, let's You're new to a job. You're the new C. P. O. There's eyes on you. You want your first hire to be a success. If you hire someone from one of the fangs and they fail. there is you can sort of say Hey, I had the best. I had someone from Google. It's not my fault. Now, that is absolutely the wrong mentality to have when you're hiring, But I do understand that mentality. You,
salva:
Completely
doug:
you know it.
salva:
And say something unpopular, but on purpose because I'm totally with you with this one that it's Isn't it that and I put myself in this bucket of hiring managers and I think illicit sometimes might happen to recruiters. But isn't it part of laziness? Say? T's much easier to go through. See. Let me see if there are a couple of names I recognize on.
doug:
Um,
salva:
rather than go a bit deeper.
doug:
I wouldn't say it's lazy because don't think people are lazy when when they hire particularly, I would say it could be driven by emotion in experience, time pressure. It could also be done by bias. You know, people might think. Hey, you know, I went to a great university and I was hired by Google and I'm really successful, so therefore I need to hire in my own image. And there's lots of convers Tions about bias and inherent bias. I think it's more about those things than it is about actual laziness. Yeah,
salva:
You were mentioning time pressures. What is the average horizon? If I want you here for Cptoday? What is the time budgets I have to put in before I get nervous?
doug:
Um, I mean, I think twenty. You use. I mean, you know, we always promise to deliver a short list in three to five weeks, because we are, You know, we just really intrenched in the community. Therefore we can short cut two months of research that the normal search companies would do. But I think if you're hiring a c, P. O, you have to look at a three to six months notice period as well, but the hiring process it shouldn't take any longer than a normal Hire. You know people, are you know? there are the actively looking or they're not? They re open to opportunities, or kind of not. And really, You know, if somebody is not open to an opportunity, it doesn't matter. You know. someone's tied in at Revolute and they're brought into working with the founder and they're going to make a million pounds in a year from shares. They're just not going to look and waiting on that person for a year, or trying to change their mind is just wasted time and effort. There are people that are more open where the shares aren't going to kick in where they're Maybe they're not actively looking, but they're less enamored working with the founders for whatever reas, And that's really where the recruiter should be focusing in my view, when there's no read, and the short list should take longer than six weeks to deliver
salva:
Right to deliver shortly is right. But then what
doug:
Yeh
salva:
you say, there is also a notice period. We usually little bit longer, so end to
doug:
Well,
salva:
end, The process is going to take, not necsarily
doug:
so so let's say delivering a short list takes the worst six weeks. Let's say the hiring process takes four weeks, Because there's multiple stake holders involved four or five state holders. That's ten weeks. and let's say there's a three month notice period, so really you should be looking. Getting a a process completed in the higher started in six months at the outside. There's not many people on more than a three month notice period that there are some, but not that many
salva:
Right. So this means basically end two and you're looking at three six more, but around that time
doug:
Six months.
salva:
you get
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
somebody six months. Let say a number to get somebody on board so you can't really rush this this process. much more that what you are saying before. and just take whatever
doug:
No, I mean, you can have an interim. You know, if time pressure is that much of an issue, there's an interim. You can parashoot interimsin, who will normally do a good job and stay stabilize what you need, stabilizing, or sought out. you know, product in distress, etcetera, But yeah, six
salva:
I
doug:
months
salva:
know.
doug:
is a good time scale To hire an on board somebody.
salva:
So if you look at it with, so, we've been looking this with the eyes of the company and the hire managers, and let's see if you look at this with the eyes of the, let's say, the candidate or somebody thinking about a leadership career in product. When is it the right moment to say? I want to make this jump, and, first of all, going from product management to a leadership position, and secondly from a leadership position into a c, P position. What are the right moments?
doug:
Um, I mean, some people don't even want to, so this is, I don't think there's a cookie cut or an. There's a lot of product people that we speak to, and actually they just want to ship great products. They just like you know, it's a bit like some sales of people. just like sales. They don't want to lead sales teams, you know, and some product people are there. They just want to deliver great products. keep Customers happy, manage stake holders and learn new skills in terms of an actual promotion. But let's say okay. I do want you know more states. I do want to climb a kind of ladder. The most important thing is working for the right company. You know, you've got to work for company where there's the opportunity to do that, because realistically speaking, If a company is hiring a c p O, They may well recruit somebody internally who's tried and tested, so they may have a V p product and think Okay, this is. this is somebody. we know their skill and we think they know our. In our judgment, they have the experience to step up and do the scaling job if they're going to market, and they're going a pay a salary of a hundred and fifty thousand, and they're going to pay a fifty thousand pound fee. On Top of that, they will absolutely want somebody who has been there and done that Already. So I, I always think if you're looking for promotion, look internally first because you are more. you know, you've you've got stake holder by, and you've got sponsors or you should have. If you are unlikely to take a leap externally, you might get a nudge forward. But but I think if you're really ambitious, what you need to do is join a company that's growing and scaling fast on. Get your promotion opportunities there. and then you got to compete. You know, you've got to be better than the other people. You got to demonstrate whatever competence is needed to do it.
salva:
But somehow what you're saying is the best bet is to bet on the right horrors, rather
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
than getting something quicker. Just because S a guard a very shiny title somewhere than trying to jump on this title.
doug:
Um, yeah, you know honestly, I always think Chase chase the right role and the right environment and money and prospect will follow.
salva:
And what is from now from a recruiter perspective, Right if I am in the in a product role doesn't error with level. What are the things that to day you need as a as a candidate to do you or not to do to get noticed. What is
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
making
doug:
it's
salva:
the
doug:
a
salva:
difference
doug:
good question. I did a talk on this jam about two years ago, so I think candidates need to understand the time pressure that recruiters are under. And when I say recruiters, I don't just mean me, I mean internal recruiters as well. You know, when you apply for a job, your C V hits a recruiter that might be the line manager. It might be in turn talent person, etcetera, But if I think of a typical day, I walk in in the morning, and I've normally got a hundred resume in my box, and that means you've got Ten to thirty seconds on each one. You have to make a call. You know I can't. I can't read a hundred resumes and phone a hundred candidates every single day. You know, so you have to. You have to make very very fast decisions on where to put your time who to invest your time in, And this isn't you know. this isn't unusual. This isn't just me. Every recruiter who sees your C V will be under very similar time pressure, So you have to have a good resume. That's the most important thing, and you've got to have a very good linked in profile that matches your resume because people will check it, so resumes. I think they need to be concise. They need to be data driven, and you've got to have tangible outputs and achievements and I think that has to be the headline. You know you, when I open a resume and I see a long list of responsibilities, You know, I sigh Really deeply, and when when I see when I, when I open a resume and I see about me delivered against Why saved X, With why budget improved conversion by thirty per cent. You know, my heart leaps because I think great. This is an amazing candidate because their outcome driven. And if somebody's you know, Guess what? if somebody's resume is output driven There, you know, their outlook on life and probably their outlook on their job is going to be Output driven as well, So when they get hold of a product, they're going to be thinking about. how do I make it better, So that that is the key. We've actually got a red writing guide again on our website here for people to look at, But the take aways are concise data driven, tangible output and achievements.
salva:
Totally absolutely concise in We can trust that enough. can I challenge you? On one point? I like you know what
salva:
you think about this when a candidate right how achieve like three percent conversion increase.
doug:
Yep,
salva:
Are we really saying that this one person alone managed to increase the conversion rate three percent? This is really credible, or isn't it enticing people to stretch a litle? it of throth, Ou, see what I mean
doug:
Look, it depends on where they worked, So if they're the sole product person in the company, that's entirely credible if they had ownership of that part of the product to say they owned that. you know, if that's if that person works at Sanesburi, But they owned the check out for mobile. That again is perfectly credible. if they were part of a large team that delivered it, Arguebly, they weren't solely responsible for it, but if they hadn't done the job properly, they'd have been held accountable for the failure. so I, I don't think there's anything wrong with claiming ownership for things that you're held accountable for.
salva:
Right. So as long as you were accountable at certain bond and we're kicked for
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
results, it is fair to get a your, your Esme,
doug:
Yeah, and I would also say you know I would talk in the first person I delivered this. I wouldn't say part of the team that did this.
salva:
So stick to what you did. That's what you're
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
saying, right,
doug:
absolutely, yeah,
salva:
you re mentioned, linked in versus racing, our Rasmith. Still a thing when Link is there
doug:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know we we. We've got a footprint that we've candidate resumes that we've built up over twenty years the desire go to because we have contact data. We've got mails who've got a relationship with those people. As opposed to, there's a lot of people that don't even look at linked in messages, so yeah, resume is absolutely important.
salva:
And other ways somebody lately writing a pool somewhere. I'm not sure it was some linked in about covered letters. Is this still something you read,
doug:
Um Again, I have a hundred resumes so I tend not to. I tend to look at the resume. You know we were we work in because we work in a niche of product. I know what good looks like quite quickly. I often find long cover letters are trying to plaster over the cracks in a resume. Now If I were doing something different, if I were doing, say sales recruitment Where Personality? you know where a number of intangible s Can have a very strong input as to whether a person is a good candidate or not. I would speak to more people and I would read more cover letters, but product a bit more binary. so
salva:
Ryan,
doug:
I, rather than writing long cover letters, I would encourage candidates to find jobs that they're a good fit for and have a tailor to ram, screams out about their achievements and is a compelling read.
salva:
And it is said concise and outcandriven.
doug:
Yeah, it's a better use of your time to spend half an hour finding a job that you're well suited for than writing a cover letter for one that you're not
salva:
Absolutely the last thing I want you to cover with you about again
salva:
from from the eyes of the of the candidates, and packing liberty on your brain of recruiter,
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
and it is salaries. Still we mentioned before is top of mind, especially when people switching what are your tactics or suggestions for successful salary negotiation from the candidate perspective,
doug:
Um, tact. Well, I think, I mean, I actually did talk on women and products about this last year and that was Yeah, that was a different economy. I think with negotiations you, you have to be bold though, and you have to ask for what you believe you're worth. Now there's there's subjectivity and there's objectivity in this Sales salaries. People will always be subjective and they will think. Okay, you're on seventy thousand. I'll give you a ten per cent paid rise. Ten per cent is reasonable, but that doesn't work for people who are underpaid, And this, This particularly affects minorities who are traditionally underpaid. Whether that be ethnic minorities, women, et cetera. So if you're working at Environment where you are underpaid, I wouldn't disclose your Salary to the employer or the recruitment agency. You don't have to. You can say your salary range is this to this, and you're looking for these capabilities and I've demonstrated those, so you're paying me to do a job. Be objective. The flip side to that though is, if salary range is, you know seventy to eighty thousand, and your current salary is seventy five. you should absolute Use that leverage and say hey, it's my seventy five, and I want ten to fifteen per cent, and that isn't unreasonable, so give me eighty five, please. So I think from a Candadates point of view, you should do whatever you, whatever works best in your favor, and understand as well if you're delivering your job is safe. You know if you're delivering against what you can do that, there's no such you know. product people aren't overpaid. You know, product people didn't cause the financial crash in two thousand and nine by being overpaid, So I would be quite bullish about what you ask for and plan your tactics. and if people want to speak to me about doing that, you are more than happy to do it. and again, I'm pretty sure the presentation I did is on our website as well under our blogs law, as our head of marketing. To make sure we log all of this stuff,
salva:
So let's repeat, address us for people who, once you have access to this is unintelligent people Dot com, right,
doug:
Dot k.
salva:
Sorry that cover okay
doug:
Yeah, dat. if you look under, there's a huge section for employees and a candidate advice. I think it's under. so
salva:
With full suggestions and and tips
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
to to get the best salary on how that is go in relation to the remote versus high bred versus non remote discussion. so first of all, from it from a salary perspective, how do you bench mark now that jobs can be removed, So if you're in the U. K, you might have a candidate from France, and potentially still working from France. Is it making your life bit harder?
doug:
No, I mean, the balance has shifted to a degree. you know. there, there was a period probably a year ago where The market was so candidate driven. People could say I demand to work fully remotely. Um. And you know if you're if you're working in France, Portugal, or you know, say you're choosing to work in a Ou. Now a low paid economy. There's no reason you should be paid less. So you know you could. You could be working in somewhere where like Ty, land where you know Sterling goes a lot further. You're doing the same job, So there's no reason you should be paid less. Um, and there's a number of companies out there like Deal, for example, that have got software platforms that allow workers to be fully remote Everywhere we are finding increasingly though that hybrid is the model that employers and employees are most comfortable with because we have had people turn jobs down because they're fully remote because they like to work in an office with colleagues, so Yeah, we're tending to find a hybrid model of two to three, two to three days per week. In the office is the norm at the moment, and if there's a local office, you know people who are based in. I don't get paid less than people working in London. In our experience, you know product people get paid for the job they're doing and what they're delivering.
salva:
What I'm here? Two things. one is that basically the what makes really the salary range is more, of course, the job you're delivering, which is perhaps more realitituded ranges you would expect if you're hiring locally for just job, Doesn't matter where you're really based in one sense or the other, right
doug:
Absolutely. yeah, absolutely
salva:
On the other that there is this hybrid mode. But also, if I got your ridugsayif in a hybrid, in the sense of say, two days per weeks, For example, this is still meaning that you have to leave not too far away, so eventually cutting a little bit. this cross border kind of relationship
doug:
Yeah. I mean, look, you know, Hybrid doesn't really work if you're living in a different country.
salva:
Right,
doug:
You know that that. that's really really challenging unless it sort of coming into the office one or two days a month. I mean, nobody is going to get on the star to get into a London office two days a week, So hybrids tends to be in country and it tends to be where Compody says. Okay, Want everybody in the office to build culture, learning, knowledge sharing training and we're going to do that on Tuesday, for example, And we want people in the office one other day a week, but it's up to you when you do it, and then you work from home three days a week, if you want to, or you can just come to the office when you want to, And then there needs to be a local office. But again, if you think, if I think of the U. K, for example, you know that the tech community Is overwhelmingly based in and around London. You know. it's where a quarter of the country lives. It's where all of the unicorns are from. Is where the investors are. Ye are Now commuting there from Birmingham five days a week would be soul destroying. It's two to three our commute each way. That's if the trains are running on time, that's just not feasible to do on a five day week. So what that would mean is you have to live in or near London, And that mean You would have to have you pay a premium for your property and for transportation, And this is why we have this sort of London waiting on salaries and wages. But these days if you have a distributed office system and you're saying hey, it's hybrid, so kind of coming one day a week, and maybe go to the local office one day a week. Well for the right job, doing a kind of to our commune to get in one day a week, but that's less onerous. That's a lot. That's That's a lot more doable. particularly if three day A week you can kind of work from home, so I mean, it depends on the job you're doing, and it depends on how you as an individual feel about working from home. I mean, I live half a mile from the office and I prefer to work in the office, so I come into the office every day, But I used to work in London, and when the trains weren't working, it was horrific and you know my quality of life really really plummeted as a result of it, so yeah,
salva:
So I was also yea. there is no one rule in reality, but this hybrid looks more like local in that you don't want to be extremely far or like
doug:
No,
salva:
in a different country. Anyway, we're
doug:
no,
salva:
still talking about encounter in reality with a bit more
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
flexibility,
doug:
I think so, but most you know, most international companies have got offices in every country. anyway. most countries have a capital where you know. the population density is kind of is highest, anywhere where people tend to go to work. Whether that be Paris, Madrid, Tokio, New York, Washington, You know there's there. are. There are centers of commerce where people congregate. Are there? So
salva:
But I also hear we should forget lil bit. also about this dream that we got like during pandemic, Like living on the seaside and working for a company downtown London. This is probably fading away a little bit.
doug:
The digital? No, mad
salva:
Kind of
doug:
there are there. Are you know? it's a balance, isn't it? It's a work life balance. I mean, it should be about output, so that you know you're If you're delivering and shipping great product, It doesn't really matter where you're doing it from. Who cares? It's like if you're in sales, if you're in your number. Who cares whether you're doing that on the goal, of course, or in the office or at home, because I think it becomes a problem, though, when people are saying Yeah, I can't hit that sprint though, because I'm on the beach today. That's obviously going to be a problem. Or it's like you, The serfs great today. I just don't think I can make the scrub meeting. I mean this here's
salva:
Just
doug:
a. That's a problem. So
salva:
sure.
doug:
but if you, but if you're shipping great products and you're doing your job, it shouldn't really matter where you're doing it from.
salva:
I might take it away. There is again. Let's practise what we preach. So we preach, Bro that we preach being customers centric in this. In this sense that the customer is the company. Let's look at it with the eyes of the company as well. What really makes sense for them?
doug:
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. but, but I do think I would say on this, You know, The old ways have gone being in the office five days a week. That's not coming back and again, We have had clients who you know they talk about all. It's five days week in the Office for culture and it's not It's for oversight. You know. I mean, maybe your culture is oversight, but we just say like we're just not going to have you. We, we can't hire. People will not do that. Not not not because they're unwilling to travel to the office, but because what it says about your environment.
salva:
Yeah, it is part of the business card. Eventually that you're showing
doug:
Yeah,
salva:
Sam.
doug:
totally is, absolutely is.
salva:
This was an extremely interesting joke. I've got a last question for you before letting you go. What would be your suggestion to any product person to be still imployable in five years from now, And this include where the market is going. What you have to do from a personal perspective to be still relevant.
doug:
Um, Yeah, that's a good. It's a real. It's a really really good question. So there's a couple of things you should do. I think this is how to invest in yourself, so product isn't going away, Like tech isn't going away. Product isn't going away, So I think there's a couple of things. Firstly. you've got to stay relevant, so you've got to stay relevant with product trends. What product doing and a really good way of doing that is going to conference, Is going to industry events, but also getting a mentor and we actually do a mentoring scheme as well, But mentors are People who are mended. are promoted six times more often than people who aren't mended. So it's just you know, the Yeah, it will do you. The world of good mentaring program is also dramatic, dramatically improved the promotion retention, eight rates for minorities and women, from fifteen percent to forty per cent. So from an employer's point of view, you should absolutely have entring schemes for you, Few people. The first thing is a product person, as a candadtat, get mente. get yourself a good mentor. Secondly, make sure you're delivering. you know, delivering good product. And if you're in a business that is not allowing you to do that, For some reason, you have to change the environment or change the environment. If you can't change the internal environment, get yourself a new environment. Um, and join a progressive product central organization and stretch yourself. And if you do those things, the rest will come the promotions. If that's what you're after all the money or the job satisfaction will come.
salva:
Actual, thank you much. I was full of very important information today. If people want to reach out to you or get access to all this great data points Tou mention or Tam plates, can you repeat once more where they can do this?
doug:
Yeah, Sure, if you go to w w w Dot, intelligent people dot dot K, people are welcome to email me if they wish it's dog bate that intelligent people do. And now I always respond to email, So if people reference the podcasti'll, always give a response. Yeah,
salva:
I'm going to make sure to have all this information written down in the description, so if people didn't
doug:
Oh
salva:
have the time to to listen carefully about the mail addresses and web address, are going to find them down here in the information by the podcast. That thanks you very much for being here today was really a pleasure
doug:
O. thank look. honestly, thank you is a great proadcast. I really enjoy talking with Salvator. Thank you very much.
salva:
Likewise, hank you so much.
doug:
Take care.